The Truth About Yoga Retreats: Money, Burnout, and Why We Returned

Transcript

Should we do a retreat in Tuscanyany? Know your why. As always, I think when in doubt, why am I ask ourselves why am I doing anything? Why am I going to run this retreat? Why do I want to do that? And then what outcome do I want people to have at the end? And how do I want to facilitate during this time? You're really in receiving mode. That's the power of a retreat. A lot of the times when I make decisions, I check in with my body. And this is definitely the wisdom of the sematic practices of yoga for so long. >> Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Ulola with Heart and Bones Yoga. I'm Bri with Heart and Bones Yoga. >> Okay, we are going to be talking about yoga retreats. We are just fresh I want to say fresh off the press, which is like not the right word, but we're just back from Tuscanyany. So, we just had our retreat in Ebio. So, Bri, having just come back from Tuscanyany, I actually want to start somewhere else. I want to talk about why you actually stopped doing retreats in the first place. You used to call it being on a retreat retirement, which I know was a big part why people were so excited that you decided to host again. Before we jump in, like why we're doing retreats, I just wanted to ask what made you step away from them in the first place? There's so many reasons why I retired and stopped doing retreats because I had done a lot over the years and a lot of different types of ones like definitely like day retreats in the cities that I lived in uh weekend retreats outside of the cities that I lived in and then of course international retreats in other countries. And I've also done a bunch of different styles of them where it's like again that weekend residential retreat or international retreats where you're at one retreat center the whole time. You don't go anywhere else. But then I've also done a bunch of ones where it's almost like a yoga retreat tour because we're going to different places in a country. For example, we did that with Iceland and Croatia a couple years in a row. And each has their own benefit, but that was a lot of years of doing it. And there's something for anybody who's run retreats, what happens is what I call like there's a real rigma roll with them. Meaning like you put a you put a lot of money out front. There's the deposit and I'm talking more like international retreats for sure, but even a weekend retreat, you still need to put a deposit on the place. You got to organize all this stuff. So, there's a lot of risk upfront. And then the rigma roll is okay, we've got interest, but is anybody actually signing up or some people sign up and then they cancel and they switch and it's it doesn't always just magically fill up. And it's that's the part that's kind of frustrating. And after enough years of doing it, I got to the point where it's like, wait, if I want to travel, I'd like to travel not working, you know, because a retreat, and we'll talk about that a little bit further in this conversation of just the perception of, oh, I get to have a vacation, too. No, you don't. It's still work. And it's lovely work. It's a beautiful setting wherever you are, but it's still work. And so that whole rigma roll of are we going to fill it? if we don't fill it or if you just sort of break even. Yeah, you've got this trip but you've made no money on it and yeah, you're in this other country but it's you know there's a lot to consider and I think enough years of the rigomearroll where I also simultaneously had just launched Heart and Bones online. I was like I'm doing a lot of other things and the work of running a treat a retreat was too much. So, oh yeah, and that also timed out because in 2018, 2019, my family and I, we went and traveled while I taught. I did a little like tour around Europe, workshop tour around Europe and the UK. So, I'd spend almost a year traveling and teaching, not work, not retreats. Actually, I did do a couple retreats within that year of teaching. So I think between like traveling to different countries, uh, organizing and teaching workshops, which were great, and then throwing retreats in it, it was a lot. And I think I was just like, I'm over this. And then not long after that, the pandemic happened. And that was like the final nail in the coffin. I was like, great, thank you, world. That's extra reason why I do not want to run retreats anymore. So really the last retreat I ran was in I think it was Croatia in 2019 and then that was it until now. I I also while we were planning this retreat in Tuscanyany just moments being like oh yeah right this is why I stopped doing retreats and not that it we didn't have this amazing time going to Tuskanyany but there's a lot of backend work that has to happen for a retreat to be successful and it's kind of easy to forget about it when you get really like caught up in like travel and you're like oh of course I want to go to Bali or something right but like do there's a lot of backend work that has to happen even knowing like are there allergies? You know, like the like the unsexy part of planning a retreat, deciding what we're going to, you know, invest in as as an online studio, bringing something to life. So, knowing that kind of like that was the reason that you took a pause, what actually made you decide to come back and like why this specific location, I guess we could talk about, you know, really like what changed and made you wanted to host another retreat after Yeah. since 2019, I guess, all these years. >> Yeah. a lot of years separate and I had no intention actually when this started meaning that so the way the story goes was uh you know I'm on Instagram and as a yoga teacher on Instagram I do get a lot of DMs from retreat centers and sports gear and garbage companies that are trying to like you could be an ambassador for blah blah blah. So quite often I just I don't even look at that. I don't even look and because they're all message requests. It's not so I don't even necessarily open up the inbox or or look at that. But then there was I think this was just so magical in the end because for whatever reason so Ebio was the retreat center that we went to in Tuscanyany and for whatever you know they did what they're need to do is like reach out to teachers and be like hey do you want to do a retreat here and for whatever reason something told me to open it and then I even remember in the moment I was like ugh why am I opening this why am I even bothering like what are you doing breathe like and then this other part of me was just like open anyway so I open their Instagram stagram. I open the message. I look at their Instagram and I'm just like within an instant I was like, "Oh my god, this place is gorgeous." And so then I went to their website and then I sort of priced it out for him for for fun. I was like, "Okay, if we did a retreat here, how much would it cost roughly?" And I did some rough math and I was like, "Well, it's it's not so bad. I'm sure we can find people to fill this up." And I think I like either texted or emailed you and was like, "Should we do a retreat in Tuscanyany, you know, and it just was a very clear yes." And so the way I always like to make decision, a lot of the times when I make decisions, I check in with my body. And this is definitely the wisdom of these sematic practices of yoga for so long. I have a pretty good barometer or antenna of like the if a if I have a physical sematic yes or no and when I thought about it like do I want to do this knowing what we just talked about and knowing the reasons why I retired I'm like is this you know despite the rigma role the backend admin all the things do I want to do this and I got a very physical like clear yes in my body so we just took the leap and did it >> yeah and I remember when you first approached me with it. We started looking through kind of the documentation that they sent us and their organization like helped a ton because it just felt the lift on our end was less like just knowing, okay, here are all the things they already recommend for our attendees to do in their free time. Here are all the like add-ons here. it felt really more like a menu we could choose from and it didn't feel like I' I used to do a lot of events and event planning and so for me seeing the level of organization on their end also I was like ooh this makes our planning a lot easier. Um, so like now now that we're back, looking back at what we did, what do you think made this specific retreat in Tuscanyany so successful um that you decided that you want to do it again? Because we're going to do the same location in Tuscanyany but in the spring this time. So why are we going back? What made it so good? I know to go from retreat retirement and be like, I'm never doing another retreat again to out of the blue being like, okay, maybe let's do this. let's take this leap to honestly even like within the last days of the retreat I was like okay I need to check in with them to see when they're available again I need to come back here and also for me as like I love like travel is something I really love to do and there's not a lot of places in the world that I want to return to not that I didn't love them but I also have this view of like well wait if I'm going to travel I want to go somewhere new because there's just so many other places that are beautiful in the world so there's only actually a handful of places I would return to in a heartbeat for a variety of reasons. So I was actually even also surprised at myself that I was like instead of not just being like, oh, I broke the retreat seal again, like, okay, I liked it. It wasn't so bad. The rigamor role was worth it. Let's do another retreat. There's this part of me that's would have usually been like, okay, where's the next place? Do we do another Tuskanyany one? Do we go somewhere else? But very clearly for me, it was such a special place. It was such a lovely place to be on so many levels, in so many ways that I'm actually a little bit surprised that I was like, "And seven months later, let's go back to the exact same place." When you say like it was a special place, I think people might hear that and go, "Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure." But it really to me was like a magical location. Um, it's like in the it's like a valley in the forest in Tuscanyany and you're like close but not too close to anything. So, if you just wanted to like chill the whole day and just like recuperate, you can. But if you wanted to go do a wine tour, you can as well. And maybe it was the time of year. I know that was that was one of the reasons where we like the idea of April. It's a shoulder season, so the temperature was perfect. It just everything about it felt easy and gentle and just flowed really naturally. I felt like for us. Um that said, I think a lot of people imagine that yoga retreats are just like these relaxation long naps by the pool kind of vibe places, but there's often a lot more that goes into it or you can do. So, I'm going to ask you as if I don't know this, how did we approach the structure of the days and how do you think people should look or what should people look for when they're choosing a retreat or planning one of their own? I know we put a lot of thought into like what should a day look like at this retreat. >> Yeah. Well, to back that up a little bit, uh the So, actually you had said April, but it was October that we were there, but the next one's going to be at the very end of April. So, just in case somebody got confused. >> No confusion. >> But shoulder seasons either spring and fall work really well for us. Uh so, it also I think bottom line figure out what kind of retreat do you want to do? Do you want to do a weekend retreat? Do you want to do a day retreat at your local studio or renting out a space or a weekend retreat an hour away from where you live in a beautiful uh retreat center? Right? That's going to be similar and yet different than an international retreat. And so there's actually a couple answers within this because let's say within the international retreat setup, I I feel like there's two options. The most popular option is what we did with Tuskanyany, what I've done in different countries, which is you go to a retreat center and as you said, that retreat center usually does a lot of the heavy lifting. They uh like what the one thing I liked about Ebio like they had all these beautiful photos for us because this is the other thing with it. I booked this retreat center without ever being there. You know, there's a little bit of a risk I think is I think it it's actually kind of a low risk because they had reviews online. I just knew this wasn't going to be a bait and switch and we get there and it's horrific. And actually even side note of the side note like as we got there before everybody else and they're giving us the tour because I thought those photo those photos sold me. I was like sign me up I am going. I felt once we were there in person those photos undersold it like it was even I felt like my jaw was open on the floor as we're giving. I'm like, "This is so really like it's even better in person." So, we lucked out on that. So, that's the retreat center experience where you just, you know, usually just set up where you're there at the one place and you stay there the whole time. And it's really actually quite an easy leadin for those who are new teachers to do. I've done the other style where in the last couple years was like those Croatian Iceland retreats that I did. I partnered with a friend of mine who had a yoga retreat company called Breathe and Life. Any of you listening who had been on those retreats, you know, it was so fun, wonderful. Uh Breathe Life is no real not really running retreats quite in the same way anymore. They'll do an annual retreat with my dear friend Cat, co-teer and our teacher training who takes people to Nepal every year for a trek. So breathe in life. Anyways, wonderful. Good. But my friend Melissa used to be a tour guide with another um tour company for years and years and years doing more like party retreats like like things, you know, when you go to Thailand or you go to the Philippines and it's like these party trips in a sense. So partnering with her who had that different experience was really great because I could show up as a teacher and not have to deal with the logistics. So, how we did those ones was first of all, Iceland and Croatia were two countries that I felt you couldn't just stay in one spot. It was a waste of the country, especially Iceland. If we had just gone to a retreat center in Reiku, you're only getting a tiny bit of the glory and magic of Iceland. So, for us, what we did on those retreats, a lot more intensive, a lot more work. Melissa had to go ahead of time and like scout out all these different locations because we would stay at different guest houses maybe one or two or three nights at a time. I can't actually remember if these were seven or 10 day retreats or eight. >> I was going to say this sounds this sounds long like versus like the Tuskanyany one is five nights. >> Yeah. So it's manageable if people want to travel before after which I felt like a lot of our attendees did like they either checked out Florence or Rome like we did or one or the other or both. So it's like five days means people can still do their own vacationing if they want. >> Yeah. So when you're adding this as you're listening to this dear listeners and you're thinking about retreats for yourself and the pros and cons of the different things that's a night like so between these two setups I think for the most part actually most people listening are going to go and I actually recommend and suggest that our first setup which is go to a retreat center you can have it be five seven those can even be 10 days if you want uh but when it's at the one spot I think doing the ones that we did with breathe life which were a little bit more travely because again we didn't do like especially in Iceland. Iceland doesn't have the infrastructure. It's not set up as a place including Croatia actually where it has a ton of yoga studios or like nice retreat centery spaces to go do yoga in. So we kind of we would the we did it three years in a row. The first year we rented two SUVs. I think 12 or 14 people was our max. Rented two SUVs. Melissa's driving one, I'm driving the other. we're doing because you have to see if anybody's been to Iceland, you have to drive to see all the wonderful sites and then I think our last two years was like we rented a big uh sprinter van which actually I drove and I loved it. that I loved being this I felt like a tour guide driving this sprinter van uh all throughout and so that was a little bit nicer to anyways I'm going into the logistics of it all but that's a lot of logistics in that type of retreat and you're really as the facilitator and guide and teacher it was wonderful to have somebody else there with me Melissa so having a co-partner to help out on that really intensive experience you don't get a lot of free time to yourself as a teacher and facilitator you're with the group a which has its pros and cons. I think depending on how you're wired as a person, I enjoyed it. It was fun. Even though I'm actually quite an introvert, but when I when you put me out in the world, when I'm like travel briefs up and has I get more extroverted and I'm I can handle the people where at home I'm like in my introverted self. So yeah, I'm I'm laughing because we're I think both introverts that happen to be like an extroverted like careers. So it's like I have done event planning and I also used to teach yoga. It's so funny. Um I felt like the the ebio was a perfect mix because we we got to be our extrovert itself but then we get gave so much um just like free time that if someone wanted to be an introvert they could. Um on a side note I was like actually sick the whole time and having a couple hours to myself in the afternoon just to like pass out on the bed was like saved me big time. So yeah, I think we actually did a really good job like structuring it throughout the day. >> Well, and yeah, so we'll get to that in a second because I think this is sort of leading us to those pros and cons of both of both styles of retreats. And then what do you do if you do so I think type when you do a what's called like a more residential retreat where you're staying in one spot. So if you have and the desire and adventure of taking people in that more like the Croatia and Iceland retreats I'm talking about where you were like we're seeing the country and doing yoga in the mornings in random places but that actually was really beautiful. We did some like beautiful glacier view chilly mornings in Iceland that were actually so memorable and lovely. We were in small really small town random little gym area and it just it worked. And actually to be honest, I don't even remember Croatia where we did some of our yoga because we did spend I don't again off the top of my head I'm going to say seven to eight days if not 10 days um in Croatia and we spent maybe like four days in one spot that was really nice and then we traveled around a little bit more. So we actually did a nice balance of staying in one spot and moving around. So those that there's that type of retreat, but again I think the majority of people are going to be doing the residential style retreat. And so yeah, how do you do it? I think the sky's is the limit. I think you decide what works for you as a person, your audience, your capacity, what they want. I think there's some retreats out there and people who really want to make it the most like spiritual and magical and like soulchanging women. wild woman's retreat type thing, you know, like there's like that kind of vibe where I think there's probably less free time and it's because it's really all about this facilitation. It's probably got a lot of yoga, a lot of meditation, journaling, like that vibe is it's that if that's your intention and the style that you want to create, you make your schedule according to that outcome and that vibe. For me, I really love the balance of yes, we do yoga and no matter what, I feel like on retreat, there's change, growth, evolution, magic that happens just by virtue of being in a different country or going away from your town, even if it's an hour away or it's that day retreat, but spending time out of the routine of your life, doing yoga, like having that routine and and being fed, right? Okay? Because all these things also like you're fed, literally fed on all the levels, but you know, you don't have to make your food, you don't have to go shopping. You're really in receiving mode. That's the power of a retreat. But for me, I I'm not a teacher who I'm pausing a little bit because I think for me as a person and a teacher, I I really like this balance of we're going to do our work. We're going to show up. We're going to look at ourselves. We're going to like with kindness and compassion. We're going to do the yoga, not just the physical, but have that reflective yoga side of it, but I'm also not the teacher who's going to guide us on a deep uh spiritual journey in that sense of the first version that I just mentioned because I like to have because I'm not interested in that. I'm I'm so interested in that. But the way that I want to facilitate people's evolution and growth is actually just giving freedom and space. Like it's not my job. Like my job is to still be a teacher and show up and facilitate and hold an overall container that the retreat is, but I know a lot of that self-awareness and magic also happens in the downtime in the free time. This is also and that stuff is also a lot of work, right? And I don't know if we're on vac because I look at it as a yoga vacation maybe a little bit more and rather than like a yoga deep work of self and and so that's for me and I know that as a teacher for myself. So that's how I'm going to make my retreat accordingly and how I'm going to plan the days accordingly. So I hope that makes sense. So I think it's like know your why as always. I think when in doubt, why am I ask ourselves why am I doing anything? Why am I going to run this retreat? Why do I want to do that? And then what outcome do I want people to have at the end and how do I want to facilitate during this time? And am I somebody with the capacity to do it? And also part of the the for us having the way we structured the day for example was we would wake up uh there was tea and coffee and some snack service at I think it was 7:30 in the morning and then we did yoga at 8. And this also was we plan that around because it's also the time offering that Ebio had for the brunch and breakfast. So when you're doing a retreat, you're also going to have to be within the parameters of also the retreat center when they offer the meals. So for us, the meals needed to be at the brunch was 10:00 a.m. was it? I believe so. And I and I remember having this debate with you like should we do breakfast, lunch, and dinner or should we do brunch and dinner? And then we landed on tea service, brunch and dinner. And I think from the feedback we got, people really appreciated it because there was something for the early risers. So you're if you're hungry, you're not going in hungry to practice. But then we weren't like I felt like I was so stuffed after brunch. There would have been like no way I would have even had time for or like capacity for more food. And it opened up the whole afternoon too, right? So we were kind of like we spent a lot of time debating food versus time versus you know >> and I think we did a pretty good job with that because I think so again so if we if the tea and coffee and light snack service was at 7:30 to 8 because the yoga was at 8. Uh I think the morning we did an hour and a half so that brought us to 9:30 and that gave because it because brunch was going to be at 10:00. So that gave some people time to get dressed, shower, whatever they want. And then we all met for an amazing, you're right, such a full like full brunch. And that's at 10:00 a.m. to 11. And then roughly, right, it didn't have to officially end at 11:00. Then like if we were to do some sort of lunch, yeah, that would have had to be pretty quickly. Everybody still would have been full. But it also gives people so just only offering brunch and dinner included in the retreat actually gives people the space because it ended up being about five hours of free time I think from 11 to four or five. No, we said five. Yeah, five because Ebio's dinner was only ever at 700. We didn't have it. We couldn't change that time. They were like, "We offer dinner at 7 p.m. This is Italy. Dinner is late." So for a lot of our North Americans, I think we're used to eating a little bit earlier, but 7 p.m. is what Ebio said. So that gives us quite a lot of time and then the free time because where Ebio is located, you can walk in 30 minutes to a beautiful medieval walled city that city is maybe a generous term like beautiful walled village town. >> Village town that had lovely little shops that had some restaurants. So some people would walk there and have their own lunch, right, and have the freedom to do that. Or some people with cars went to Sienna that was just nearby and then they would have lunch at Sienna. Other people were full and didn't need it. And I think we also included uh picnic lunches two of the days, which that was maybe our only thing that we didn't love in the end for a variety of reasons. But I love the freedom of all of that free time. And I think for for the most part, everybody else did. And in my experience running those types of retreats, that's generally how I've always done it. And I think it's pretty successful. I think it's that really nice balance of facilitated yoga space, meals, and then free time to explore and do what you need to do for your retreat. Because again, I don't want to tell anybody what to do. It's, you know, they're spending a lot of money to co-tra and time and time off. And we're all beautifully individual. And some people just want to read books all day. Others want to go oh do whatever. Like we did a bike uh tour which was so magical and lovely and fun. So yeah, with with the residential retreats I think giving people downtime to integrate the work the work of the yoga to hang out with other people to do art whatever it might be write reflect journal is pretty powerful and important when we are planning these things. Yeah, I want to make sure like people triple hear what you said earlier as well, which is like the why of where why you're hosting the retreat because I think that in itself will really dictate the experience that you create and me being like the operational brain that I am, I really appreciated like the little things that you did like making sure that there's a schedule posted in the dining room. And I know those things are like, okay, who cares? Why are we talking about this? But knowing your why and then going through what the attendee or guest experience would be like from start to finish. So just like closing your eyes and imagining what it would be like for that person because I know you and I even talked about like Ebio is, you know, a very sustainable farm. They're organic. So a lot of their decisions are based around that. So things like towels, like you don't get fresh towels every day because they don't waste water. They they're very conscious of those things. So then we have to make a decision. Do we factor in people wanting extra towels? It seems like this like tiny inconsequential decision. But when you view it from like the guest perspective or the attendee perspective, those little details in the long run do make a difference, right? So there's this like why are you hosting this? And then also what's the experience you want them to have? And you know we didn't want people to be hungry so we chose to have tea in the morning. We also didn't want people to be like trying to do their practice on a stuffed stomach. So that's why we chose to do brunch, you know, like really just what's the experience you want? And I think Bri, what you said around like the experience you wanted people to have is time to be themselves and like absorb the work of the practice and that meant giving people free time. So that's really good. >> Yeah. And then within but at the same time like we still did two yoga classes a day like it wasn't just the one morning. So, if that wasn't clear in the rundown of what we how we set that up was we had a five o'clock yoga class and that at that time we just did that one as an hour. There could have still been I think we could have almost still done both classes as an hour and a half or maybe next time we do this uh the morning is an hour and we do an hour and a half in the evening before like at the end of the day. And so that's still a lot of yoga. So, it's still a nice and everybody also had the freedom to attend or not attend. There was always times where some people decided like, oh, we're I'm going to go do this. I'm going to skip out on yoga. Great. Cool. Because again, this is your trip and other people attended every class. And I think having the freedom to have both is important. So, it's kind of a the perfect schedule. So when anybody's listening to this, I actually found having the 700 p.m. dinner made really good time to fit everything else in to have that afternoon yoga class. So and and have a really generous amount of time in the afternoon and still have the morning yoga. It's Yeah. And then I think too sometimes like okay, what's your why? Is it a restorative yoga retreat, right? Is it all about like the nervous system? So maybe your two yoga classes are actually all just like a lot of lying around or maybe you know like it doesn't you get to decide how you fill it up. But I think you're right there's so many different little things of like right having but you don't sometimes if you're a new retreat teacher you don't know what's missing until you're doing it. For example with that posting the schedule and I learned that from Melissa from Breathe Life on our Croatia and uh Iceland retreats. She was really good at like having the schedule of each day because I think she learned in her experience people are always asking even though you've sent the email with the schedule there people hopefully looked at it nobody remembers and so you're fielding all these questions of like well what are we doing today what are we doing tomorrow and with the schedule right there like so it's a very small thing but it's a very big thing about it we also did like suggested activities so people who maybe didn't want to do a ton of planning could just kind of look at it and be like, "Oh, yeah. I could just walk to that town." And I was thinking like the one day I went on a solo walk. There's like a really famous pilgrim pilgrim route and I got to do it by myself. And it was just so beautiful. It was so quiet and meditative. I was like, "If we go back, I'm like, we need to do a like meditative walk with the group down there cuz it's so beautiful." But then again, I think the the magic was that we got to do what we wanted. And what I needed that day was just like time in nature. And I got it through that, you know, trail. >> Yeah. Yeah. And also too, keep in mind once you go to retreats, it also you can have the best laid plans just like if anybody's teaching and you go teach a class and you've like made the best sequence ever in your mind and then you see the class and who shows up on that day, you're like, "Oo, this sequence is not going to land with this particular group of people. I have to pivot." That's going to be a little bit the same with our yoga retreats. So, first of all, describe your retreat as best you can so you're not getting people with misaligned intentions and expectations, please. That nothing is worse than misaligned expectations. So, make sure you're describing and have the schedule on your website. Have the des like how the vibe, what are we going to do, how are you going to feel, exper experiment or explain that very clearly. And also too cuz I think what you had said like going for the walk and being alone and group activities and that balance of such cuz like that's why we were very much like nothing you can do whatever you want in the afternoons. Here's some suggested group activities like the bike uh guided bike tour around the Tuscan Hills which was like we were riding in a postcard. I swear to God it was amazing. Uh that was an add-on that people paid extra money for and it was optional. So being able to pivot. So for example, this particular group, and if anybody's listening, I love you. It was so much fun. And I really kind of read the room because I had a little bit more planned that seemed to feel a little bit more of like like we did talk about intentions and we did have reflection of like like the deeper aspects of yoga. And then I kind of realized, oh, this generally speaking, the majority of this group seems to just be happy to connect with each other in a really like outside of the yoga room space rather than all of us being in the yoga room and having like deeper discussions or reflections or whatnot. And so I saw that right away and was like, "Okay, cool. So, we'll kind of keep this a little bit more the yoga practices that we were doing together would be more individualistic in the sense of like everybody's doing their own practice being led by me of course, but they did such a beautiful job connecting with each other outside of the yoga room. And so, when we come back in April, it'll be a totally different group of people. And maybe this next group will want to have a little bit more of that intention setting, let's say, or some of these other things. So knowing that what to expect and also being able like cl clarifying for people who you are as a teacher what they can expect during the day and then also being able to pivot ne as necessary. Yeah. Read the room. I guess you're really good at pivoting like that. I also I guess would would take away as a lesson that you don't have to fill every minute. So I guess if you're organizing something like don't pressure yourself that everything every minute has to be perfectly planned because people will do what they want and giving some free free time I think was one of the best parts not like the best part but like one of the good things of this retreat like everyone's different there was people who rented cars and wanted to go do like vineyard tours you know what I mean so yeah giving people space. Yeah. >> Okay. Uh me being Miss Operational Brain Virgo, I it's so fun to talk about retreats. The less sexy part, but the part I think everyone needs to hear us talk about is the prep and the planning and the things that we did to make sure that this was going to be a very successful retreat. Uh and one of them was having an Excel spreadsheet, doing the math. Like what are some things that you would tell people that are thinking about or maybe they have in the past planned a retreat but want to do it better? like what is something you they need to kind of think of as they do this >> first and foremost and you're right the unsexy parts because here we spend all this time oh and then people are just so happy and you know la we're all having fun and like the vibes we were talking vibes now it's like okay let's actually talk math let's talk about realistic things in the back end so one of the very first and foremost things that you need to do and this is what I said at the beginning which was I did a quick math I saw what my costs were be were going to be approximately from what the information they gave me. I kind of came up with a number of what I would charge people off the top of my head and also based on looking like this was the preliminary math and so I did some quick math and was like okay okay we'll need x amount of people in order to even break even and sometimes when you're looking at the math and you're like well wait a second let's say the place is because for us I think the place was maxed out at 17 people uh depending on the room configurations so if you're at a place where it's like okay if we can have room for 17 people at a retreat maxed out including or not or not including the facilitators. So, and if it's like, oh, but we only break even at 15, the risk versus reward is a little less exciting. And I would actually go either you need to increase what you c charge people because now all of a sudden it's requiring 15 people to even break even. That's a lot. And is that worth it? So, finding that sweet spot between and I can't tell you what that sweet spot is. You have to determine what that sweet spot is between how much it's costing you to run the retreat per person how much you know your people or you hope or you think your people will pay and can afford because maybe your audience is full of billionaires maybe or millionaires or whatever and it's like oh great I can have this super luxury retreat and charge people $10,000 and I'll make10 I don't know, you know, but for most of us, it's going to be regular people. You're a regular person. We're regular people. So, what's that sweet spot of like, okay, I can't charge $10,000 for this retreat because I know most people can't afford that or won't afford that. So, what's that sweet spot of like what it's going to cost? How many people is my break even point? I'm going to recommend in a perfect world if you can don't you PS don't use this as like gold at all. you figure out your own math because don't learn math from me. Actually, learn yoga and anatomy and movement and business things, but do not learn math from Brianna Johnson. Uh, but so I'm going to say this though with that disclaimer. I think in a in a perfect world, it's probably smart to let's say again you have 17 people and your break even point is like max 10. What do you think, Ulola? Like something like that. Maybe even eight people. So then the the pressure anybody past eight or 10 if it's 17 is your you're breathing a little easier. You're not like oh god are we going to fill this and lose money. Obviously, each retreat center will be different, but like what was unique about Ebio, it's this farmhouse from the 1200s and the rooms, the setup, like we couldn't know if people were going to pay for single room, double or triple. And so, we had to do some fandangling of like if every single person is a single room, how much is that single room worth? If every sing, you know, so it does get a little bit complicated. Um, we asked uh my partner to make us a fancy Excel spreadsheet because that's his favorite thing in the world. And we had to start factoring in what, you know, each person pays for what they get. And it it really does change. But also, I will add factoring in the little tiny costs that don't seem like a lot. You know, that extra towel. Um, we factored in allergies. We assumed everyone had an allergy. And I'm so happy we did because it just meant that when we were eating, everyone could eat from any wherever they wanted. There was no like weird like no don't touch this one bowl kind of situation. So really starving. But we were also charged, sorry I didn't jump in because we were also charged and I think this is pretty normal. Charged on the back end per person if you if somebody has like a gluten or dairy or whatever allergy they were charging I think an extra five something like that. Not a lot, but when we mathed the price per person, we didn't know if like all 17 people would have an allergy or only two. So, we were just like, let's just include that 5 allergy extra into our mathing of the costs. complexity is a really it really was quite complex because generally speaking when you're doing a residential retreat the retreat center is going to have their price of the retreat center itself and everything that they include at like per night of you doing it and then the food is going to be extra. So I'm just going to make up numbers here. Okay. So, let's just imagine that for easier math again with my disclaimer, but like something like it's $1,000 per night and you're there for five nights. So, you know that it's going to cost you $5,000 per like in total, but then oh, now they're charging $50 for the meals. And actually, that's a fair and kind of common price, give or take $50 for meals for the day, if not more. God. And so let's just say 50 bucks per per. Sorry, thank you. Yeah, per person per meal or let's say it's going to be a little bit different. So let's just go $50 times h whatever how many meals. So then you put that number and then you're like, okay, the little extras. You're right. Oh, now we have five extra dollars here or oh to do this one specific type of tour or for us we had a fire like a bonfire one night and they charged us for that you know so it's like which is normal this is fine and so you get to decide do so then we put the cost of that bonfire and we had some musicians that came and did a really fun music night for us and that we had to pay for and so we did that math ahead of time then to break it down. Okay, wait a second. So our cost per person with all of these details equals blank amount of dollars. So that's how you figure out what your break even is. So you have to get in and go into what every bit that that retreat center is charging you and then do the math. Also, what's helpful too, then you also go like Ebio and actually virtually all the retreat centers will if they're a good one, they're going to be posting the retreats that are being held there. And so, you can look at different people's retreats and at the exact same place for the exa exact same amount of time that you're there and see what they're charging. And I found it very interesting. People were charging all sorts of different prices. is I saw one that was almost double what we charged and I was like what the like now knowing the cost like wow that's a bold move but then I kind of looked at the person's retreat and I was like oh this is one of those really more intensive retreats where the facilitator like everybody is together the whole time and they're doing a whole I don't know journaling astrological I don't know whatever it was right but just something more intensive okay maybe that pricing reflects that so you could so there's that kind of complex math the Excel spreadsheet was really nice because Then we could kind of figure out what any sort of profit Oh, yeah. Let alone factoring then your expenses. So, how much is it going to cost for you to get there? Do you have somebody you're doing it with? What co like what's the cost? And if you're doing an international retreat, please give yourself extra time to not just show up the day before and actually like give yourself a couple days if you can on either end to get over your jet leg to calibrate to the place to be there and then a couple days at the end to re-calibrate like okay we were just working for this whole time now I have a couple days free time and then so add that to your cost as well. Don't think that that's not still part of the work. Okay, so if I if I'm there three days ahead of time, I'm going to still have to like book a hotel or Airbnb. How much is that going to cost? I have to book uh or pay for meals. How much will that cost? Right? So, it's a lot of like managing and figuring out details. And if you're listening to this going like, "Yep, and no more retreats. This is too much work." Here's one other thing that you can do. And then and again I'm mostly talking about international retreats because they take that much planning and organization. So does a weekend retreat of course you got to have you have to do a lot of the same math of course but it's a little bit like your expenses will be less because of the travel angle. One of the things that you should really think about or or an easy thing to do is there's and I think in places like Mexico, Costa Rica, uh places like that I find generally they do it you like the retreat center will actually just do even more of that stuff and you don't end up getting paid a lot. It's almost like an exchange. It's like you can just show up as the teacher, teach a free basically, you know, you're teaching for free, but you get a a free trip. That might be a nice practice for the newer retreat teacher. But then I wouldn't stick to that model because there are you you have the potential to make more money. They're making way more money. You're just like because your free trip is not a free trip. You're still working. But maybe it's and for some people that's okay too. So there are ones like that. I feel like I've had places like that reach out to me over the years and a lot of them tend to be in Mexico or Costa Rica. Like >> do they pay for your flights and stuff? >> Yeah, I Good question. It's been a lot of years since I've actually even remotely looked at that kind of thing. I think each retreat center will be a little bit different or and or maybe depending on how many people show up because I think some of those ones you're pulling from their audience as well. So, if you're a teacher who doesn't necessarily have enough of a a community that could or would go on a retreat, international retreat, this is a way to sort of start getting out there and getting that practice. So, definitely I hope that if you're doing that more exchange style retreat that you are either making enough to cover your flight or they're covering like they're just getting you out there. You're showing up and teaching. You might not know most of the people, but you got this. And if you set it up like the way we talked about it where it's like yoga in the morning, maybe yoga in the afternoon, and there's this whole free time experience, then maybe you do kind of get a mini vacation because you have those couple hours to yourself each day. Okay. Uh yeah, I hadn't even thought of those. So the moment you mentioned, I was like, "Wow, that might actually be a really good like intro." So off of that, um, if someone's listening to this and they're yoga teachers, because we have a lot of yoga teachers obviously listening to our podcast, what is something that they can take away from this chat to maybe start dipping their toes into starting retreats? And I actually know some of our attendees at our own retreat, they were doing like weekend retreats, which I thought was really interesting, and you keep mentioning it. Do you think that's a good start or like should people start with workshops or like where would where would you start? >> I think we start Yeah. So I think be moving beyond a workshop I think that's a little bit different. Organization is kind of the same. The math in a way is kind of the same. It's less complex I think because usually you're just renting a space or you're splitting with a yoga studio like 7030 6040 or something like that. So that side of things is a little bit easier. But once you want start to get into retreat with food and having to organize food and accommodations, I think the obviously the first one would definitely be either a day retreat where you can not have to worry about accommodations. It's like let's say 9 to5 or something and you have a lunch provided for people. That's a really nice balance and a weigh in because maybe you just have to rent a community hall or you rent a conference room in a nice hotel or something like that or at your local church basement, right? Any of these locations that could work as a retreat. And then you hire somebody that you know who makes food. Maybe you have somebody in your community or catering company and you say, "Okay, I've got 20 people coming to this. How much would it cost to make 20 vegetarian gluten-free meals?" because that's generally in a day when it's only one meal like that, I don't we would just default to like a nice vegetarian gluten-free, dairyf free uh meal because that's one meal. It's easier. We don't have to do separate dishes for different allergies, right? Um and then you go from there and then you math it out from there because they're going to charge you their costs and then you go, okay, if I have to pay $50 per person and then this room is costing me for the eight hours x amount and then how much should I charge, right? And then you do that and you're like, "Okay, that wasn't so bad. I didn't hate the organization. People signed up. This is great. I'm ready to try the next step, which would be doing the weekend retreat." And you can either do do and I've done both many time long time ago, but I've done ones where it's at a retreat center nearby, wherever I would be living, and they do the food, they take care of that. Uh, same thing. So, sort of like what we talked about already with the international retreats, but just on a smaller scale, two nights usually. And or you do them at you can have I know there's like cabiny kind of places that you can book out with a kitchen and then you could do the same thing. Maybe you bring in the person to do the catering and you pay them. So, it's kind of the same same but different. And then you try that for two days and you go, "Oh, do I like this? Do I like being with people for two and a half days? Do I like teaching that much? Do I like the backend rigma role? Because sometimes, and it's not always the case, but people are people. And sometimes you have to hold their hand with a million questions and emails and like do like, right, it's never just showing up at your retreat. And that's the day the work starts. The work starts the day that you put this out in the world because you have to market it. You have to do your backend expenses and figure out the math. Is this even financially viable for me to do? Then you're going to field emails. And then you're going to try to hopefully keep everybody's information organized to being like Sarah is gluten-free, vegan, doesn't like shellfish, and only wants this room. And that all that information times by like 18 people of organization. And then right like hopefully you're keeping track of all those details. And then then people might be cancelling and do you have a very clear cancellation policy? And a lot of times, especially on international retreats, that cancellation policy is like, okay, by the 30 days beforehand, you're only getting a 50% discount. I'm making this number up. I can't remember what we have off the top, but sometimes it's 60 days ahead of time, and you get a full retreat, maybe minus service fees, because you're on the hook. This is the other side of retreats, too. You're on the hook. you've paid a big deposit upfront that you're not going to get back. This is also why it's a rigma role and can I do it? I'm kind of now downplaying it going like don't do it. It feels but I just want it to be realistic because because there are these things that I think teachers don't think about. So that but that cancellation policy whether it's a class a pre-registered workshop or a retreat of any sort get clear on the money because there will be a point let's say 30 days before your international retreat I think and let's say it's 75 per or maybe you only get 25% of what you paid in full back because you got to look at it and go well wait a second we're 30 days we're 15 days out us as the retreat people the likelihood of us filling your spot 15 days, 30 days ahead of time for an international retreat is very small unless you happen to have a wait list, but then the person who's going to fill that spot has to pay more for their flight. Like it's like right there's all these logistics. So having a airtight cancellation policy and terms and conditions that people have to sign too, not just like that they give, but if you can get them to sign it, then if that ever happens and somebody has to cancel and they're giving you a like a hard time because fair, totally fair, they're losing out on all this money, but it's like, well, hey, you knew this going in. We're out your money if we like, you know. Anyway, so there's a lot of things to think about. That all being said, it's also fun and exciting and wonderful. >> On that note, the next retreat we're doing is going to be April of 2026 at the same location in Ebio. So, what can people expect this time around? And who do you think this retreat is really for and why the same place? Bri, uh, well, so now, so the last one was in the middle of October. We had the best, magical, perfect fall weather. It was so lovely. This one is going to be at the end of April. So, we're already going to be at and I think in Tesany at the end of April is going to be I'm not God. I don't know what the weather will be like at any point of the year, right? But theoretically, on average, it's going to be those perfect 20 plus degree temperatures in Celsius where it's not roasting hot like it would be in July. In Tuscanyany, you've got the wild flowers. So when we're there, you're going to see all these like beautiful spring wild flowers in the fields. So it's kind of at the end of spring feeling moving into summer vibes. So you're going to have that like fullness. We've just come out of a dark winter and now we're in magical Tuscanyany in the spring. So that I think is going to be exciting. Who would be there? I don't know. If you like this podcast and you like our approach, you're going to probably really love being in person and having so much fun. And I think that's what I'm really excited about because as an online teacher where most of my world is here on like on Zoom on the interwebs to be able to finally meet people. So for example, our last retreat center, we had a couple people who are alumni of our teacher training. We had a couple people who were longtime Heart and Bones online studio members. And it gives me so much joy to like hug and see each other in person because I know it's this one-way street really of like you're consuming my face or my words for a lot of times and then we're like oh and now we're in person and then oh my god we're having so much fun and I'm really Yeah. So, I think if if you like Heart and Bones at all, you're gonna like just being in person with us because I also find, not just me, but like the people who come to it are also really friendly and fun. And I don't want to jinx myself, but I feel like with every teacher training we've had since 2019 or 2018 with virtually all the workshops I've had and retreats over the years, I can't think of a bad I don't even want to say this. I do. I feel like I'm jinxing myself, but I can't think of a bad experience with like a high maintenance person or you know like that kind of like oh god oh how or this group is weird like how did like what's happening? No, I really feel fingers crossed that I think it should always continue this way that we really do attract really awesome people. So for so anybody who had been on retreats with me in the past and you're listening to this, I love you and it's great and we can hug and it's wonderful and see. Okay, now I'm rambling because I get excited about the in person together in community. Uh what was your third question before I remind you of it? I was going to say uh also you don't have to be a teacher to come. You can you can be a teacher and you don't have to be a teacher. I think there's a really good split of people. There are there people there who literally lead their own retreats and they just wanted to have their the relaxing side of the retreat. So if you're a teacher, you're so welcome to join. If you're not a teacher and you're a student, you're so welcome to join. If you want to come and do some research on how to lead retreats, come join. >> Yeah, totally. I'll give you the intel. But and it and it never feels from what people tell me, you know, like like it never feels like there's a weird division between those who teach and those who don't at these retreats at all. And because it's also the approach of Heart and Bones is we don't it works really 5050 perfect for like teachers and non-teers because we're not focusing on like well now we're going to perfect a one-armed handstand or I'm not just talking yoga teacher shop talk in a class. It's like we're just doing our practice. So teachers are being nourished and taking a break from teaching and people who aren't teachers are being nourished and taking a break from their life. Like it's just Yeah. So good point with that, Uba. Nice. >> And then the last question was why the same place? I feel like we touched on it, but hey, we can go on about it if you want. >> Yeah. Again, yeah, why the same place? Because I know there's so many other beautiful, amazing retreat centers. If I'm back in the retreat game, and we'll see how, disclaimer, we'll see how long I continue this. I'm riding my own personal wave of enjoyment. And at any point I might be like and seen and I'm retired again. So I beyond this I don't know what's going to happen if there's going to be another one. So in a way my my first thought is like well let's go to a different place because there's so many other amazing places. But at the same time, Abio was so again magical and special and the people who run it and the story behind it and the land itself and the location and all the thing, the food, the people like it just it was really I got a lot out of it just being there and enough that yeah within days of leaving I was like and when do we come back? I want to be back in this space in this place. itself and yeah so it's almost like that physical body yes that I talked about at the beginning that I I tune into and check into I do that a lot when I travel there's some places in the world where sematically I'm like gh okay intellectually this is beautiful but like I am not vi this is not my like I don't feel in my body that I love this place ebio tuskanyany area that was the first time I'd ever been there um my just for me personally I had a really beautiful physical like Oh yeah, this is a home. This is This is nice. >> Lovely. Um, on that note, I will leave the link in the description if you're curious and you want to learn a little bit more about the upcoming retreat for 2026. I will also in the description leave information of how you can join us in the online studio for a dollar for the month. Um, is there anything else you want to chime in or add on? Yeah, if you're watching this video, because of course you listen to it uh wherever you listen to your podcast, but we also always have this as a video version on YouTube on yoga teacher tips YouTube. If you're if you have questions or like as you listen to this, please put in the comments or head there even if you listen to this in your ears as a podcast, go to yoga teacher tips and go to the comments and leave any questions because Ula and I are there and we love answering the comments. So if you have further questions about like because I know we really talked a lot. This was actually our intention was to make this a shorter >> about by half podcast episode but in the end I guess there's so many things and there's so many things. So if you have questions about it uh go ahead and put them in the comments and we'll help answer it on YouTube for you. Okay. Well thank you Bri. Thank you.